and we love our summer movies. get out of the heat for a couple of hours, relax with some popcorn, escape to a world where the bad guys are bad and the good guys win. you know who the hero is. you know who the villain is. and there is no question that good will triumph over evil. just sit back and enjoy. but in real life, well, in real life, we sure would like to have clear villains and heroes. we want the villains to be zods, unquestionably evil, the real bad. we want every hero to be superman. above reproach. superman is right, zod is wrong. no nuance necessary. we want it to be that simple. it's in part while we love presidential elections so much. there's a good guy, your guy, and a bad guy, the other guy. they fight it out head to head and we can anticipate the big battle scenes, you know, they're always debates, and follow the action for months until the final climactic moment, election night. but summer politics in an off year, not summer movies.

it's a lot more complicated. that guy you thought was the good guy, he's been tracking your phone calls and e-mails. and the rag tag team coming together to save the world. yeah, well, the allegedly bipartisan senate immigration bill is skating on increasingly thin ice over in the house. the powerful, dedicating their lives to helping the weak. have you seen congress lately? the question isn't whether to cut benefits that millions of people, many of them children, depend on to eat, it's by how much. to be honest, even our movies aren't that simple anymore. zod may be hell bent on destroying humanity, but that's because he has a single minded devotion to saving his people. superman struggles how and when to use his powers. batman, ironman, superman, that reflects our world. we know so much more about our leaders, so much more quickly than we used to.

we even know that the best are not blameless. they're not pure good. but if you ask me, a more complicated story is ultimately a better one. pure good versus pure evil, kind of boring. the action of real life may be harder as a plot to follow, but we can still do it. we can untangle the plot lines and tell you who the villains are. and rest assured, there are still bad guys in politics. many of them are in the house of representatives. look at the farm bill. the house's version included severe cuts to s.n.a.p., the food stamp program. $21 billion cut over the next ten years. close to 2 million people could lose benefits. 200,000 children could lose free school lunches tied to s.n.a.p. eligible. 850,000 households could see reduced benefits. there are provisions to drug test recipients, to prohibit the usda from advertising s.n.a.p. in any way, to change eligibility rules, to bring back

the asset test, to kick out anyone with $200 in assets or a car worth more than $4,500. and who is their leader of the super villain? john boehner, the speaker of the house! you know, it might be fun to think he's the zod to president obama's superman. but, really, we think he's a little more like gru, you know him, from "despicable me," grand ambitions, minions he can never really keep in line. speaker boehner brought the house's version of the $940 billion farm bill to a vote on thursday, expecting to it pass, and it failed with 62 republicans voting against it. the vote was a shock, as usually house speakers don't bring major controversial bills to the floor unless they know they're going to pass. republicans tried to blame it on democrats, saying they failed to deliver the 40-votes promise. and house majority leader eric cantor even said he was, quote, extremely disappointed that democrats chose to derail years of bipartisan work. but even if gop leadership had those votes, the bill still

would have failed. now, i certainly don't envy john boehner's job, corralling house republicans actually does seem a lot like trying to rely on an army of fictional, nonverbal minions who would rather have slap fights than get anything done. but, still! if you're going to follow nancy pelosi, one of the most effective leaders in the house's history, by doing this, come on, boehner, pull it together. as a villain, we can't even fear you. joining me today, irin carmon, a staff writer for salon.com. mark alexander, a law professor at seton hall university, and former senior adviser to president barack obama. aisha moodie-mills, a political strategist, and adviser at the center for american progress. and my favorite southern republican, katon dawson, the former chairman of the south carolina republican party, and current chair of senator lindsey graham's super pac. so nice to have y'all here. >> great to be here. >> so katon, seriously, is there any way, because, i want to

think that boehner is just sort of pitiful, but then i keep thinking, like, is it possible that there's some strategy here that i just don't get? is there something we can say about what just happened on the farm bill with boehner? >> well, there are a lot of things you can say, but certainly, i'm a fan of speaker boehner's, unlike a lot of our panelists here, but it doesn't always work out, whether it's tip o'neil, nancy pelosi, denny hastert. that didn't fail, but i think at the end of the day, it was a pretty good process of urban democrats and rural republicans who were representing constituencies came together, 62 conservatives said no, and the bill failed. that doesn't mean that the farm debate is going to be over again. >> but you don't bring it -- >> it won't be. you don't bring something to the floor that's going to have 62 members of your caucus voting against it. >> well, it's happened before and it won't be the last time. let me give an example of politically what i think happens here. for some of the republicans i talked to that voted against the speaker, they certainly wouldn't vote for him to be speaker

again. so hanging in the balance is not his speakership, i guarantee you. it's a tough job, being speaker. but what these republicans who voted for this bill are going to see is typical things that in campaign elections. they voted for indispensables such as wood-burning heating systems, sheep and goat subsidies -- >> it's a bad bill. >> it's a bad bill. >> sure, it's a bad bill, but that's not what killed it. what killed it was the cuts were insufficiently draconian, vis-a-vis, four people. >> the problem here that the speaker has is that the republican party is fractured so much. there are a lot of folks that came up and saw sort of the movement of the obama campaign, grassroots movement where people are empowered. now you see a split. the republicans are split. and it's impossible for the speaker to keep folks in way the same way. this being somewhat of a surprise for the speaker is a big problem for him. because he doesn't have that kind of control that so many folks have had in the past over their caucus. >> so when katon says this has happened in the past, it's not completely unheard of historically for a speaker to

have this kind of battle going on within his his party. and often what then happens is a realignment. when you see this kind of fighting, what happens, for example, the southern democrats shrug their shoulders and all head over and become republicans. are we looking at something where potentially moderate republicans will eventually say, hey, you guys can't get a debt limit, can't get an ag bill, we're out of here. >> you hear someone like bob dole, he was the standard-bearer for the republican party, who's saying, i don't know what to do with this party. he goes to the senate floor to try to get some support and he's not getting it. that's just one example. i think a lot of people are saying, what is this party becoming? republicans who are asking that questions. right now there's a big battle for the soul of the party and i'm not sure where it's going to end up. >> on this question of the soul of the party, even beyond the politics of it, whether boehner is any good at being a super villain or not, these cuts, the cuts in nutritional aid that are overwhelmingly to poor children, i keep wondering, are they

getting away with this as a strategy, as a discourse because we're in an off election year, because it's summertime and there's no election? why would they think that this is a reasonable way to proceed? >> you know, i think that that's the question i ask myself all the time. because luckily, they didn't get away with it this time. but all across the country, you see these very draconian efforts by the republican party to really take things away from poor people. it's really to me this assault that's happening on poor people. and we'll talk about this later in the show, but also on women, that i can't understand how -- if there's any logic, who the rational person thinks that that is a long-term strategy for them. lindsey graham said it best, was it this past week, said that they are pretty much going to burn and fall apart, because they are facing this demographic disaster that they can't get their arms around. and so by attacking poor people, by attacking latinos, by attacking women, i'm not really sure they think that that moves them forward, when everything demographically tells them that it's actually going to set them

back. you know, it's funny that i find myself sometimes everyone sidesing with speaker boehner's plight, because most people know me, i disagree with much of the things that he believes in. but i think that he has a real tough time right now trying to wrap his arms around very extremist factions of his party that he can't control. and i think the republican party just so fractured, like you were just saying, that i don't think that anybody can control it right now. and they're going to burn. >> it's interesting to think about, you know, how did they, in the past, sign on to things like food stamps that they oppose. there was some sort of deal making, rural states got their crop insurance, they got their subsidies, in exchange, people with urban districts and with high concentrations of poverty got s.n.a.p. which is compared to other countries hardly a generous program. very little to live on. has replaced direct cash payments in many cases. and so there used to be, you would give me this, i would give you that. they came perilously close this week to actually getting

something done. every other thing we've seen pass the house has been a symbolic repeal of obama care. the 20-week ban that's never going to become law in this administration. the problem the that everybody sort of has these theatrical ends, where they want to seem ideologically pure. >> and this point you just made, i don't want folks to miss this. the ag bill, the farm bill, is the classic -- like, this is what you teach in american politics 101, to explain how the house of representatives operates. to explain what, you know, how you put food stamps, which are almost 80% of the farm bill, right, s.n.a.p. is about 80% of the farm bill, you put it into the farm bill, because you can't vote against faerps. voting against -- not voting against farmers means you get to bring the poor folks -- it is the classic example of how the house of representatives is supposed to work and it fell apart. when we come back, we'll talk about the other 20% of the farm bill, with, you know, a farmer. yes, we've got one, next. after a hard workout, i had a heart attack here in this gym.

i started getting really nauseous and i felt like i was going to pass out. luckily there was an emt working out. he suspected it was a heart attack. he gave me a bayer aspirin. bayer aspirin was a lifesaver for me. i don't ever want to have another heart attack. i'm on a regimen of bayer aspirin. [ male announcer ] aspirin is not appropriate for everyone, so be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. never assume that it can't happen to you. be proactive. see your doctor. ♪ be proactive. see your doctor. help the gulf recover, andnt to learn from what happenedg goals: so we could be a better, safer energy company. i've been with bp for 24 years. i was part of the team that helped deliver on our commitments to the gulf - and i can tell you, safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge safety equipment and technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all our drilling activity, twenty-four-seven.

and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. safety is a vital part of bp's commitment to america - and to the nearly 250,000 people who work with us here. we invest more in the u.s. than anywhere else in the world. over fifty-five billion dollars here in the last five years - making bp america's largest energy investor. our commitment has never been stronger. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] for dad's first job as dad. nissan tests hundreds of child seats to give you a better fit and a safer trip. snug kids, only from nissan. ♪

it's not just superheroes that hide their true identities. many villains come in disguise too. take a look at these republicans offering what may say sound like innocuous amendments to the farm bill. >> the only way to get out of s.n.a.p. reform is to have the s.n.a.p. beneficiaries, which are in every single congressional district, as opposed to farmers, which are in not every single congressional district, to bring them to the table. to have some skin in the game to make sure that their community communicated to their members of congress that they want them to get something done. >> you see, that sounds clark kent, sort of mild enough. but here's how congressman mike conway's amendment would really work. it would automatically cut food

stamps by 10% if congress plans to reauthorize the farm bill. it would literally decimate the program. it was meant to be a sort of doomsday advice to encourage congress to act. but if the sequester taught us anything, it says doomsday devices can become a smothering reality. and then there was this guy, explaining his position. >> we all agree that we don't want children to go hungry. what this amendment is about is making sure that addicts and criminals are not taking what is not theirs, taking food from the mouths of these children. taking food from those who are in need. >> so, congressman richard hudson wants you to think that he's all about saving the children. his actual plan is to drug test s.n.a.p. beneficiaries, a common sense move, he says, right. or a way to humiliate people and keep them from applying to the program. and oh, by the way, this tact has already proven a failure. florida found that drug testing welfare recipients cost the state more money than it saved. money that could have been spent directly on benefits.

now, here's majority leader eric cantor, praising yet another farm bill amendment. >> this amendment will help reduce federal expenditures, provide assistance to the states, and most importantly, it will help struggling families who find themselves relying on public assistance to get back on their feet. >> and the amendment that cantor touted, it wouldn't help struggling families to get on their feet. it would force them to find jobs that may not even exist or lose benefits, by allowing states to require beneficiaries to work. now, as we know, the house rejected the farm bill this week. they may try again. and if they do, the bill could come with even more conservative amendments. joining us from richmond, virginia, is john void, president of the national black farmers association, who has been closely involved in educating the congress about the farm bill and its effect on food stamp recipients as well as farm smallers. nice to have you, john. >> thank you for having me, melissa.

>> you've been briefing members of congress about its effects. what has been your primary message to them? >> the message is the that if they're going to have federal crop insurance reform, that it also needs to include small farmers, black farmers, hispanic farmers, indian farmers. and here congress wants to cut the food stamp program, s.n.a.p., school lunch program. this is something that should be looked at very, very closely. the farm bill could be easily split up. we don't have to have the food stamp program as a part of the farm bill. it's a way to actually collude that. >> let me ask you about that. if we were to delink them. if we were to take s.n.a.p. out of the farm bill, doesn't that make it easier to kill s.n.a.p. isn't it part of the reason why we just saved whatever is left to this program is because it is tied the to the price of milk. >> what they do is, the farmers always service large-scale white producers that produce

million-dollar farm operations. and it very seldom has helped small-scale farmers. and that has been my message on capitol hill over and over again. the farm bill must include help for small farmers. the top 10% and direct payments received over $1 million per farmer. and i'm saying that some of those dollars could trickle down to actual farmers that need the help. here we are again, servicing the large scale farmers, the milk producers, the sugar recipients. all those things are going to remain in the farm bill. and here they are saying that they're moving that to the federal crop insurance program. >> john, let me bring in mark alexander here for a moment. this point about minority farmers and about small family farmers. i think of pickford as one of the great accomplishments of the obama administration in its first term. mark, tell me, how do we make sure that a for a bill keeps

people like john boyd, who farms in southern virginia, on our radar, not just these large-scale massive producers. >> the thing we have to do, when we talk about farming, we have to think about everybody. but this bill is making sure everyone is getting something. you know, the corporate giants are getting at out of this. so we can't sort of say, well, they're going to get, and those who are sitting there working their fingers to the bone every single day aren't going to get it. this isn't just about corporate welfare, this is about making sure that our farmers are taken care of. the people who are out there every day, who are watching that weather forecast, not because they want to know whether to bring an umbrella, because that's their livelihood. we have to look out how people every day take care of our needs, the food we have right here on this table here. we need to look out for the farmers who are really working themselves. and that's building coalitions. and that's a tough job. >> john, let me ask you about this. because your a farmer, yet you have a particular irritation with representative steve king.

explain to me why. >> well, what happened, as i spoke earlier about the federal crop insurance program. small-scale farmers have to pay their premium before their crop is sold. large-scale farmers get subsidized and they don't even have to pay their insurance until after they sell their crop. so i'm caught between every year, whether i'm going to buy lime, seed, fertilizer, $3.50 for diesel fuel or pay a huge up-front premium for federal crop insurance program. and i've been advocating members of congress to change that rule so the small-scale farmers can actually stay on the farmer and plant their crop and have federal crop insurance, like large-scale producers. there's literally nothing in the program for minority farmers to receive outreach. outreach will give the farmers changes and those federal rams, so they can sign up on time and these are things that members of congress pretty much just want to wipe away with. they want to do away with $20

billion to food stamp programs. these are things we need to be talking about and these are things that members of congress need to be held accountable, such as steve king, who advocates these kinds of initiatives. >> john boyd, thank you so much. i think you brought us right to where we'll stop for now, but come right back on exactly that issue. it's an issue about accountability. thank you so much to john boyd in virginia for reminding us that, yes, this is about s.n.a.p., but this is also about farmers. up next, house speaker john boehner is clinging to his job as gru to his minions. a simple : how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪

so you can capture your receipts, ink for toall business purchases.rs. and manage them online with jot, the latest app from ink. so you can spend less time doing paperwork. and more time doing paperwork. ink from chase. so you can.

well, everything but palm trees, sunshine and fruity drinks, that is. [ whirring ] [ dog barks ] i want to treat more dogs. ♪ our business needs more cases. [ male announcer ] where do you want to take your business? i need help selling art. [ male announcer ] from broadband to web hosting to mobile apps, small business solutions from at&t have the security you need to get you there. call us. we can show you how at&t solutions can help you do what you do... even better. ♪

can help you do what you do... even better. we replaced people with a machine.r, what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it? hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello? ally bank. your money needs an ally. welcome back. because we are talking about superheroes and super villains and how we've cast house speaker john boehner in the role of bumbling, would-be leader of the bad guy minions, gru, from the movie "despicable me." we even made a funny image of it. see, it's on the wall back there. see, it's funny. ha-ha. okay. now while the farm bill failed

in the house because of speaker gru's minions and because they had tacked on so many of their minionesque amendments and speaker gru suffered a pretty humiliating, it kind of makes you wonder what the guy is leader of even kind of defeat, one thing is clear, john boehner still wants to be the gru -- i'm sorry, the speaker. which is why when he says when it comes to immigration, it will be his minions' way or no way. on immigration, speaker boehner says he will not do what he did with the violence against women ac act, sandy aid relief, and the fiscal cliff. in all of those cases, they voted against the bill and boehner needed democrats to get sensible legislation passed. but on immigration reform, he says, no! without a majority of house republicans in favor of the bill, a bill which the senate is working on in a genuine bipartisan fashion, john boehner, speaker gru, says he won't even bring it to the floor. irin, this strikes me as not just sort of bumbling politics,

but potentially bad policy for the republican party going forward. >> well, it's interesting, because with regards to the farm bill, steve king said something like, i don't know why they can't see the 10,000 foot view. and i feel that that is very relevant as well to immigration. it's a tension here between their short-term interests, their base, their xenophobic in many of these districts opposition to immigration, and in the long-term, there is just no path forward for the republican party with its diminishing white male base. both of those options are unappealing, both for john boehner and the republican party, and none of those options is going to provide an easy way forward. >> and it also feels to me, both on the farm bill question and on the immigration question, that part of what the republican party isn't called on enough is just their, oh, hypocrisy on this. i mean, when we look at the farm bill, we have actual gop congressmen who receive farm subsidies but who vote against

s.n.a.p. they receive subsidies from the government, but donate want p't people, particularly poor children, to receive subsidies from the government. there are republicans right now who take their millions, while not wanting poor children to have lunch at school. on the other hand, right, when it comes to immigration, there's a hypocrisy in saying, we want to grow the party, we want to pei to more people, we're not going to be the party of stupid anymore. >> i think you just underscored it. there's a whole short-term piece of this that is really about the politics of it all, that is really driving what's not happening in terms of actually passing sensible legislation. we've got a whole lot of republicans who need to go through their midterm elections that are coming up. and they don't want to have to vote on these really controversial issues. they'll have to go back home and face folks. and i think the bigger question of the political gop strategy is that they really gerrymandered themselves into an untenable situation.

because they've created, they've created and made these red districts that are so extremely red that it gives them the numbers to have the speaker of the house, to have the majority in congress, but now, they can't have district -- they don't have districts where sensible republicans can run and win. there's really this strife that's happening on the ground about the politics and why people hold on to their seats. >> kate, more than once, you have said to me on this show, something that just blows my mind. like, oh, that's the linchpin, that's the thing that i am missing. even as i hear aisha say, okay, sensible republicans, but that's standing over here on the left looking. so it does look like a bunch of slap fighting minions to me. but if i could put on my republican everyone think hat and stand, you know, in the middle of the republican party. >> i think we need one of those. >> well, it's very tiny, but i think there is perhaps some empathy left. but if it was over there, what would i be seeing? is sensible the right word? is there something going on here that i miss as an outside lefty

observer? >> well, it comes to down to what all politics is all about,s the money. and when you go home to districts and get in town hall meetings with republicans like nick mulvaney or jeff duncan, you hear what you said when we open the show, an insurmountable debt problem. so it doesn't matter, this won't be the last time we're talking about spending. i hear it all the time. folks back home don't think we have a revenue problem in washington. they think we have a spending problem in washington. and you hear that from largely the republican town hall. i've been in the town hall meetings for these districts that have been redrawn. and i hear the concerns from everyday americans in south carolina, mississippi, texas, and states that i do work in. and it comes down to the spending. and this is a bill that got caught in the middle of that. this is $1 billion, $960 billion short. there are all kinds of things, and i do agree that if maybe we did separate those bills and put a spotlight on it, you would find the egregious actions of members of both sides.

but it comes down to these republicans, these 62 that were elected out of districts. i talked to four of them, and it's about spending -- >> but if people think that, if peep think -- but if people think that it's wrong, right? i mean, it's not actually -- so, yes, there was a tea party movement that was an angst from the federal government. but i'm just going to say there was an actual angst about it. but as we'll talk about later in the show, that is now a misplaced, empirically misplaced angst. the federal deficit is coming down, government spending is actually not where the sort of advertising of the republican party would suggest it is. and many of these people who have the angst about federal spending are recipients of federal spending, without a recognition that they are. even if they're just middle class homeowners who take the mortgage tax deduction, they are in fact getting a federal benefit. >> and i have seen it in both meetings. i've seen it where everybody wants to cut everything, but their own stuff. and you'll see it, the most

conservatives or the most liberals, look, i'm all about this, but don't cut my program. what has happened now, an insurmountable debt problem that these guys have to address. >> we'll take a break, but as soon as we get back, i'll show you why, in fact, good, high-quality immigration reform would lower the federal deficit, right. and also, it's a bird, it's a plane, it's an undocumented immigrant here to save us all.

we're here at the famous tapia bros. produce stand

where we switched their fruits and veggies with produce from walmart. it's a fresh-over. that's great. tastes like you just picked them. so far it's about the best strawberry i've had this year. walmart works directly with growers to get you the best quality of produce they've ever had. all this produce... is from walmart. oh my god. i'm shocked. (laughing) i know where i'm going to be shopping for strawberries now. get 2 full pounds of strawberries, just $2.98. backed by our 100% money back guarantee. walmart you know the funny thing about the new superman movie coming out in the middle of the latest immigration debate is, well, the quintessential american superhero, he's also an immigrant, an undocumented immigrant, at that! he might even call as a dreamer. so my question to our favorite

republican guest, katon, why do republicans hate superman? >> well, we don't hate superman. superman's my guy, okay? >> so you're down with the undocumented immigrant? >> well, let me just -- >> whose symbol from his home country is hope. just saying. >> well, melissa, now you've got me against superman, you've got me against the s.n.a.p. program. all that's incorrect. i haven't seen the movie yet, but before dark, i'll get to it. >> okay, good. >> but when we talk about immigration reform, we talk about the immigration debate we did earlier in the break, i've seen some of the rhetoric soften from the hard right side of our party. and i don't think we will, as republicans, and i hope it passes, i don't think we'll get political credit for it. i just don't think. i think the president will. it doesn't matter to me who gets credit. it's time. this is our cahance to get it done as americans. and border security, i saw the price tag, i see the 20,000 agents. i just wish we take those 14,000

irs agents the president wants and move them over to the border. >> i do not want accountants on the border. that sounds like a very bad idea. but mark, the cpo numbers do show us, in an analysis of the senate's immigration bill, that, fft, we would see a decrease in the deficit as a result of passing this immigration bill. that it will end 10.4 million people by 2020, which will cut the federal deficit by $197 billion by 2023, increasing federal spending, but also increasing federal revenue by $459 billion. this is not just a humanitarian bill, this is a good economic bill. >> it's a good economic bill. it's good policy. we're talking about the dream act. the dreamers are perfect example. kids who grow up in this country and they want to do nothing more than help their country. they go through high school, college, military service, things like that. they say, we want to produce something positive for the united states of america. that's where we need a path, and

the fact that didn't get through. i was in the senate when that didn't get through. that's ridiculous. we have so many people who are simply trying to do something positive in this country. and we have to find a way to make this country, you know, we're always looking for ways to make the country better. and here are people saying, we want to, despite the odds. >> this is what makes the superman narrative works. he's this guy who comes because his parents send him. he has to deal with all of the drama of being an outsider, but ultimately is maybe the most american american, right, the most patriotic, the one who has this sense of sort of what america can be. now, they talk about it as earth, but earth always equals america, because that's how it works. >> we are the earth, right? >> it does feel like that, in that sense, our deep american impulse towards being an immigrant nation is at stake here in this policy. >> i wanted to add one thing to the numbers that you pulled up. center for american progress put out a report a week ago on immigration. and we've been talking about, you know, this is all about spending.

this is all about needing to cut spending. we were talking about this during the break, and that's the republican's opposition. in addition to the numbers that you showed, we found that immigration reform is going to contribute a net $606 billion to social security. so that's enough to cover 2.4 million baby boomer retirees over the next 36 years. so if we're really talking about this, and, you know, being authentic about the numbers, about actually putting money back into our economy, then, you know, i think that republicans, they're not necessarily -- they're being a little bit disingenuous by pretending this is going to cost us, whether it costs our values, cost us morally like you're talking about, or cost us economically, which it's not. >> some people have some confusion about what social security works. you don't save for your own retirement. today's workers pay in which pays for today's retirees. we are in this circumstance with the baby boomers, they are retiring. if what we must have in order to make this solvent and work is more people.

we also need more people and more people paying more into it. but this is, in fact, part of the solution. >> but talking about that would underscore the fact that we are in this together. which is really at the crux of this immigration debate. >> another way in which you see this is the struggle over health care for immigrant. and i say this, i'm a proud naturalized u.s. citizen, i'm an immigrant to this country and a daughter of an immigration lawyer. this is an issue very dear to my heart. let's say you're not talking about the human rights disaster that is our current immigration state. let's say you're just talking brass tacks and you said you're talking about the money. the way that health insurance works, young, healthy, enterprising immigrants buying into a system. we need them in there. and instead they want to force them into emergency rooms. >> that's right. we need them in. and but we're not talking about immigrants like you. coming up later in the program, as time is running out, to avoid a crushing increase on student loan interest rates, we are most surely one nation under debt.

but first, a letter naturally sad to send, but i've got to send it, when we come back. is like hammering. riding against the wind. uphill. every day. we make money on saddles and tubes. but not on bikes. my margins are thinner than these tires. anything that gives me some breathing room makes a difference. membership helps make the most of your cashflow. i'm nelson gutierrez of strictly bicycles and my money works as hard as i do. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. what makes a sleep number store different?

what makes a sleep number you walk into a conventional mattress store, it's really not about you. they say, "well, if you wanted a firm bed you can lie on one of those. if you want a soft bed you can lie on one of those." we provide the exact individualization that your body needs. welcome to the sleep number summer closeout. where you'll find great savings on the extraordinary sleep number bed, as we make room for our latest sleep innovations. this is your body there. you can see a little more pressure in the hips. take it up one notch. you get that moment where you go, "oh yeah" ... oh, yeah! and it's perfect. they had no idea that when they came to a sleep number store, we were going to diagnose their problems and help them sleep better. at our summer closeout, save $500 to $800 on the closeout of our memory foam and iseries bed sets. once you experience it, there's no going back. don't invest in a mattress until you find your sleep number setting. but you won't find the sleep number bed in an ordinary mattress store. only at the sleep number store,

where queen mattresses start at just $699. sleep number. comfort individualized. accomplishing even little things can become major victories. i'm phil mickelson, pro golfer. when i was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, my rheumatologist prescribed enbrel for my pain and stiffness, and to help stop joint damage. [ male announcer ] enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. you should not start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if you have symptoms such as persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. since enbrel helped relieve my joint pain, it's the little things that mean the most.

ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biologic medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. here in nederland, we love serena williams. remember when he wewe talked wie filmmaker. remember when serena was playing in her french open match a few weeks ago, we kept flipping the channel to watch her during our own commercial breaks. it gives me no pleasure to address this week's letter to serena williams in light of her appalling comments and ha halfhearted apology involving the teen girl who survived rape by two high school football players in steubenville, ohio. dear serena, it's me, melissa. i was shocked the to read your respondents to steven roberts of "rolling stone" when he asked you about the steubenville rape. according to roberts, you said, "i'm not blaming the girl, but

if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you, don't take drinks from other people. she's 16. why was she that drunk that she doesn't remember? it could have been much worse. she's lucky. obviously, i don't know, maybe she wasn't a virgin, but she shouldn't have put herself in that position, unless they slipped her something, then that's different." honestly, i don't know where to begin, serena. there are so many layers of victim blaming and slut shaming in your words that if i was feeling snarky, i would suggest you run for congress, since these ideas make you sound like the war on women republicans who are running the place. but i don't feel snarky, i feel sad. i'm not sure i can express how much your accomplishments have meant to so many of us over the years. it is not just the sheer athleticism and the brilliant strategy, we are moved by your uncompromising determination to be yourself, to embrace and flaunt your whole badass serenaness. when we watch you, it lifts us

and makes uh believe in things bigger than ourselves. which is why your words stung so much. we understand you're a woman who suffers no fools, who abhors weakness, and believes deeply in personal responsibility. we love and respect you for that. but you turned those traits against the victim instead of against the perpetrators. image if you had demanded personal responsibility from the rapists. if you'd said, i don't care if a girl is drunk at a party, you have no right to touch her without her consent. i don't care if you're young and foolish, that is no excuse for rape. those boys should have had parents who taught them to better to victimize the vulnerable. where were their parents when they were out late at night assaulting a girl. serena, did you question or does it matter for her rapists were virgins or sluts. healing from rape is a long journey. for years, we tend to believe we

caused it, that we're bad, that we're dirty, that we somehow deserved the abuse. sometimes we just need to hear someone we love and admire and trust to tell us over and over again, it is not your fault. we can't hear those words enough, because those are the words that replace the things the rapist said to us. those are the words that give us back the power and the willingness to go on and heal. serena, your life and accomplishments have been a life of inspiration for so many. please don't use your words to push some of us back into the darkness of shame. sincerely, melissa. have a good night. here you go. you, too.

i'm going to dream about that steak. i'm going to dream about that tiramisu. what a night, huh? but, um, can the test drive be over now? head back to the dealership? oh, yeah. [ male announcer ] it's practically yours. [ wife ] sorry. [ male announcer ] but we still need your signature. volkswagen sign then drive is back. and it's never been easier to get a passat. that's the power of german engineering. get $0 down, $0 due at signing, $0 deposit, and $0 first month's payment on any new volkswagen. visit vwdealer.com today. using night-vision goggles to keep an eye on my spicy buffalo wheat thins. who's gonna take your wheat thins? i don't know. an intruder, the dog, bigfoot. could you get the light? [ loud crash ] what is going on?! honey, i was close! it's a yeti! [ male announcer ] must! have! wheat thins!

all right. let's take a listen to republican congresswoman marsha blackburn of tennessee speaking with msnbc's craig melvin on

tuesday before the house passed a bill banning abortions after 20 weeks. let's listen. >> this is something that the american people have said, you need to do something about this. women have said, you need to do something about these late-term abortions. is saving the life of women and of babies pandering? absolutely not. if we sat on our hands, knowing what we found out through kermit gosnell's trial, knowing that even his own attorney said 24 weeks is a bad determiner, the law needs to be moved back to 16 or 17 weeks. >> we have become accustom to the villainous rhetoric from congresswoman blackburn's male couldn't parts when it comes to reproductive rights, but it is troubling to see women clamoring to legislate other women's bodies and hinging their decisions on public opinion and problematic science, and, for example, the fact that, you know, regardless it was already illegal. these women who are not putting up with that mess, they live in

texas. on thursday, more than 700 people showed up in austin for the people's filibuster, an attempt to prevent the passing of a restrictive reproductive rights bill, that would force most of the state's abortion clinics to close. despite the protesters' best efforts, the texas house state affairs committee approved the three bills yesterday in a small room and without discussion. the full house will debate the bills tomorrow at 2:00. irin, you were on msnbc after congresswoman blackburn made her statements about the early -- the late-term abortions. >> well, i think there's some really interesting things happening in the struggle over abortion rights, in politics right now. and one of them is that four people who support abortion rights for pro choice people, yes, it is really important to call out that there is insensitive talk about rape survivors, it is really important to point out that these conversations are dominated by men who are legislating women's bodies. but both of those things are easy to superficially fix, which republicans tried to do this

week. trent franks was in charge of this bill, but they brought out marsha blackburn to manage it on the house floor. they hastily added a rape exception, because they didn't want to seem insensitive to rape survivors. to me, the core misogyny of the bill remains and the arguments have to be made on the merits. but when people were ask welcome, why did the republicans bring this bill? the answer is, one, here's something their entire caucus agrees on. two, they are used to having republicans be on the offense on abortion rights and democrats turn and run. but that is not what happened. democrats really stood back on this and they called it -- they didn't run scared about social conservatives, they said, you know, this is insensitive to weapon. and you had the same sort of grassroots energy in texas, that really people are pushing back and saying, yes, fine, this is uncomfortable later abortions, but we still have to push back. >> part of it for me feels that this idea of marsha blackburn standing there, her being the face of it. and again, my real sadness this week around serena williams and her comments about the steubenville rape survivor, in

both cases, part of what made it harder to take was the idea that these are women. and i don't want to assume that all women, because they're born with certain chromosomes will have the same world view, but you do feel like, don't you experientially get why you don't want someone legislating your body? >> you know, i think if you kind of step back for a minute and think about our broader culture, we are subliminally taught as women that we shouldn't value and own the space of our bodies. there is really a social consciousness that is put out there, one, because of the patriarch, because of the misogyny, as you said, that we should feel some kind of shame for our bodies. and that begins with the lack of sex education, sex ed, how we -- >> we don't even know how our bodies operate. >> and i think serena's comments, i think republican women who say these things that seem really counter to who they should feel like they are inside, is really symptomatic of

the way that our broader society thinks about and treats women. it's very sad and disheartening to me, because it feels like self-hate. >> melissa rightly pointed out, it's not immigrants like me they're talking about, it's also not women like marsha blackburn who are really going to suffer from these legislations. >> that's right. because if you are a wealthy woman with a private ob/gyn, you will have access to all kinds of reproductive care and you always will, because they can bill it under something different or do something different. it's only if you're the poor woman, if you're the young woman, if you're the teenager who has to go get care in a place that's basically public and there'll be protesters outside. >> and there'll be funding denied for it. >> all of those. the same week, because part of what's going on here is about women. it's also a lack of understanding about what late-term abortions are. there was this incredible piece in "the new york times," an op-ed by a woman who had to make the decision at 23 weeks, to

selectively reduce one of the twins who she was carrying, who she desperately wanted, because the ultrasound demonstrated that this twin was never going to survive outside the womb. as she writes, "i believe that parenthood starts before conception, at the moment you decide you want a child and are ready and able to create a safe and loving home for her or him, i support abortion rights, but i reject the false distinction between the terms pro-choice and pro-life." and it goes on to talk about how to make this painful decision. the vast majority of late-term abortions are people who want to continue their pregnancies, but can't. >> which is why there are so few of them that happen. this is one of the infuriating things to me about the politicizing of these issues. one, late-term abortions after 20 weeks are things that don't have happen. >> 1.5% of all cases. >> 1.5%. and the question becomes, this is also a measure that's not going anywhere. it's kind of dead on arrival. it really is a message bill. so for me, why would a marcsha blackbu blackburn, why would the

republicans, why would the legislators down in texas be rushing to do this? be rushing to do something that quite frankly is so marginalized as it relates to the broader society, as opposed to putting the same energy to rush and jump and move a job spill. or to do anything that's going to benefit the economy. why is it that these message bills are they're focusing on. >> they are message bills. it's an ultimate cynicism. and i'll speak as a constitutional law professor for a second. these bills aren't going to be constitutional. they will not stand up. so when you get up there and put something forward, that you know is not constitutional, you know it's going to fail, that's an ultimate cynicism to me. but i also think about it as a father. i'm raising girls. i know your daughter as well. what are their lives like going forward? this isn't something where we should have, as you point out, message bills. >> the message is that you can't have choice. >> thank you to irin, to mark, and to katon, who we let off the hook for this one. aisha is back later. but coming up, one nation under

debt and an entire generation at risk of paying the price. and ahead of the supreme court's ruling on marriage equality, a marriage sign of a cultural shift. there is more nerdland at the top of the hour. two-hour show, people. two hours. hey linda! what are you guys doing? having some fiber! with new phillips' fiber good gummies. they're fruity delicious! just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber! to help support regularity! i want some... [ woman ] hop on over! [ marge ] fiber the fun way, from phillips'. since i've been using crest pro-health, i've noticed a huge improvement. [ male announcer ] go pro for a clean that's up to four times better, try these crest pro-health products together. the toothpaste is really awesome. it cleans a lot. [ male announcer ] crest pro-health protects not just some, but all these areas dentists check most. this is gonna be a very good checkup. i feel it. [ male announcer ] go pro with crest pro-health. my dentist was so proud of my teeth today.

after using crest pro-health for a few weeks, i just feel brighter, fresher, cleaner. because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them ♪ multigrain cheerios. also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet. we're headed the same way, right? yeah. ♪ [ panting ]

uh... after you. ♪ [ sighs ] [ male announcer ] it's all in how you get there. the srx, from cadillac. awarded best interior design of any luxury brand. lease this 2013 cadillac srx for around $399 per month, with premium care maintenance included. so you can capture your receipts, ink for all business purchases. and manage them online with jot, the latest app from ink. so you can spend less time doing paperwork. and more time doing paperwork. ink from chase. so you can. how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone

who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪ welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. and i want you to be quiet. [ clock ticking ] do you hear that? that insistent, incessant ticking. it's kind of like a dog whistle, so if you're like most people, you've probably never noticed it. because it's also the sound of obsession. and to hear it, you have to be on a one-track mind with our congress, to which a ticking

time bomb is the accompaniment to our national debt, ticking away like so many seconds and minutes on a clock. only the big explosion that we're all supposed to be bracing for is turning out to be less of a kapow and more of a kapoof. as it turns out, instead of going deeper into debt during the second fiscal quarter of this year, they were able to make a dent in the national debt for the first time since president obama took office. that's $35 billion ticks off the clock, in the opposite direction, paying down the national debt. and then there's the object of washington's other obsession. the reason we all need to borrow all that money, to reduce our national deficit. yep, no big bang there either, because the congressional budget office, cbo, recrunched the and found that in 2013, the gap between our spending and our revenues is expected to shrink, to $642 billion, which means by the end of the year, the u.s. government will run its lowest

deficit since 2008, and it means that for the moment, at least, washington is enjoying a blissful reprieve from the sound of all that ticking. except that in the meantime, the rest of us have no such luxury, because the real ticking time bomb, the one we can't help but hear, more than $16 trillion in personal debt, held by individual americans owed mostly on one of the big three, mortgages, credit cards, and student loans. as of last year, number three on that list moved up to number two. total student loan debt has now ballooned beyond the outstanding balance we owe on our credit cards to nearly $1 trillion. in fact, it's now the only kind of household debt that continues to rise throughout the recession. and for the first time, the total amount that went unpaid on our student loans, and i do mean our, because i am still paying mine, surpassed the amount on credit cards that was delinquent for more than 90 days. what's worse, while those credit

card delinquencies are on the decline, it's only getting harder and harder for us to repay our student loans on time. it's a stark reminder we can no longer take for granted the conventional wisdom about student loans good debt, because the conventional wisdom also assumes graduation from college after four years, with a viable degree and a good job and a livable wage and you can survive with basic necessities and enough left over to pay back what you borrowed to get that degree. it makes the no allowances for what is increasingly becoming the new normal. the bulk of outstanding loan payments going to for-profit colleges where students are likely to graduate with insurmountable debt and a useless or no degree at all. [ clock ticking ] another ticking sound, by no so reliable that you could set your watch by it, a looming deadline in congress. an 11th hour scramble to come to terms, this time by july 1st. that's the day that if congress can't reach a compromise, that ticking will culminate in an explosion where current interest rates on federally subsidized

federal loans double. here with me now, stella adams, senior policy adviser for the national fair housing training academy. chris hicks, organizer of the student debt campaign. linnet ettnett etnett ettnette . and dan dicker, principal partner with a wealth management firm and senior contributor at thestreet.com. it's so nice to have all you hear. i want to start with you, lynnette. we've always said that student loan debt is good debt. is it now bad debt? >> you know, historically, obviously, people have said that, for the reasons you cited. they say, it's going to help you to earn a bigger wage, you're going to make an investment in yourself. and i've always told people that, just like any other form of debt, mortgage debt, credit card debt, et cetera, student loan debt can absolutely be bad debt if you put it into one of two categories. one, it's unaffordable for you to pay back.

or, two, you have absolutely no plan for how you're going to get rid of it. you talked about having student loans and i had $40,000 in student loan debt when i graduated and got my master's degree from usc. the fact is, this is a huge problem for a lot of people and we can't automatically say, student loans are good, a good form of debt. because it's simply not the case. >> but when i look at the speed with which they have increased. so quadrupling from 2003 to 2013, student loan debt has quadrupled. this is an unreasonable -- this isn't like all of a sudden, a whole bunch more people became sort of bad with their money or started making bad choices. when you look at those numbers, this is for your generation -- i mean, i am before that 2003, pretty well wildfire that 2003, right? when you look at those numbers, for your generation, that is life altering. >> i mean, that's -- it's a completely game changer. and you actually said it. it's the new normal. when people my age go to college, the expectation is

you're going to graduate with all this debt. it's just an assumption. so people are having to make the choice of, lifetime education, but that means i'm being sentenced to a lifetime of debt. the current student is graduating with $27,000. this is changing how people approach their live. it's good debt for some people. not the students, it's great debt for the banks that go unregulated. >> great for the banks and great for the for-profit colleges. so i think sometimes we start thinking about the uscs or the dukes or the whatever. but, in fact, so much of this money is going into for-profit colleges. often that take students from lowest income communities, often don't actually get them through in four years, and so there you have $27,000 worth of debt and you didn't graduate from anyone. >> and for-profits, it's higher than $27,000. i think it's $35,000 for for-profit schools. it's just unbelievable that they're taking advantage of

these students. and most of them get pushed into minimum wage jobs and have to default on their loans within five, ten years. >> and dan, this isn't just about how it changes life choices and options for the millennials. if you can't buy a house or buy a car, what that equals is you cannot stimulate economy. >> and in fact, that is the biggest problem we have right now. and it's mostly about the jobs market and what's been created over the last three or four years because the unemployment rate has gone so high, it's become so difficult for people to get jobs. it's squeezed down the job market, so only college graduates are able to get any kind of job, for the most part, even if you want to slip hflip hamburgers, you need college education. now, we have a problem, because, as you say, the interest rates are going up, and we have a major problem because what's been made as a sort of compromise statement in congress doesn't become a compromise, because it hangs on a treasury bill, okay? so the interest rates that treasuries are being paid for

ten years will now get associated with student loans. and as we've seen over the last three days, there's been an explosion in the bond market. we have interest rates that are going to start going higher. and in fact, in the next two or three years, most analysts agree and i do too, that we'll see long-term interest rates 5, 6%, and that gets added on to the 3 or 4% this bill is proposing. there could be a point down the road that students will be absolutely swimming, unable to pay back any of this debt, with 6, 7, 8, 9% interest rates on these loans. >> let me allow senator elizabeth warren speaking on june 6th to underline the point that both of y'all made. both, that there is this proposal that's going the tie student loan interest rates to these variable rates, making them basically balloon mortgages for young people. but also that it's big business for the banks. let's listen to senator warren. >> some have argued that we can't afford to keep interest rates low. but let's be clear. right now, the federal government is making a profit

from our students. just last month, the congressional budget office calculated that the government will make $51 billion this year off student loans. have we become a people who will support our big banks with nearly free loans, while we crush our kids, who are trying to get an education? >> have we become a people who will do that? >> yes, we have. i mean, we are one of the few nations in the world that have taken our brightest and best months, the innovators of the future and turned them into indentured servants. we are engaged by public policy by deadline. and as a result, we don't understand the unintended or intended consequences of these actions. the federal government doesn't need to make $51 billion on the backs of the futures of our

children. we need to be creating opportunity for them, so that they can be the innovators of the future. for example, the decision to change the guidelines for the parent plus loans. the parents who suffered through the recession lost jobs, lost equity, are now being -- their children are being penalized by having these reservations that now make tighter credit standards. we have 14,000 african-american students attending hbsus, denied the opportunity to return to school. >> because it goes up each year. >> and because of parents no longer qualified for the plus loan, and so these students now do not get to graduate. but still have the debt from the previous stuff. >> and therefore can't get the same kind of jobs. and i just, i keep thinking, you were talking about how the choices you make as a

millennial, i was also thinking about what it does if you're a working class parent, it changes what you can say to your kid. i'm the youngest of five. by the time they got to me, there wasn't going to be much money left for college. my mom always said, don't worry, just get into the best school you can, we'll work it out, we'll figure out how to pay for it. and i never felt like, i won't be able to go where i need to go because of, purely because of money. and increasingly, parents are saying, hey, i sure hope you get into the school that is the cheapest one. stay right there. we've got more on this. but i'm also going to ask you this question. would you accept a loan? the 650% annual interest rate. millions of people do every year. and that's next. copd makes it hard to breathe...

but with advair, i'm breathing better. so now i can help make this a great block party. ♪ [ male announcer ] advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together to help improve your lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. ask your doctor if including advair could help improve your lung function.

[ male announcer ] advair diskus fluticasone propionate and salmeterol inhalation powder. get your first prescription free and save on refills at advaircopd.com. get your first prescription free where we switched their fruits brosand veggiestand with produce from walmart. it's a fresh-over. that's great. tastes like you just picked them. so far it's about the best strawberry i've had this year. walmart works directly with growers to get you the best quality of produce they've ever had. all this produce... is from walmart. oh my god. i'm shocked. (laughing) i know where i'm going to be shopping for strawberries now. get 2 full pounds of strawberries, just $2.98. backed by our 100% money back guarantee. walmart

listen up.

i'm going to make you a deal that you can refuse. in fact, it's an offer so resistible that you won't be able to imagine anyone ever taking it. a short-term loan that comes along with a $30 fee per $100, and a 650% apr. you can stop laughing now. yes, i know it seems like this kind of offer is one that would be accepted by no one, ever, but seriously, stop laughing, because terms like those are no joke to 12 million americans each year who use payday loans. people in desperate need of small amounts of quick cash who end up trapped in a long cycle of deep and never-ending debt. according to a report from pew charitable trust, only 14% of borrowers can afford enough out of their monthly budget to repay the average payday loan amount. many of the loan recipients are among the working poor, whose income and credit histories create barriers to accessing traditional lines of credit. so a payday loan borrowers are

also increasingly cash strapped millennials. you know, the same underemployed, overburdened ones with all those student loans, they're also taking the payday loans, so they're getting stuck deeper and deeper in debt. so it feels to me like, for me, the payday loans and those storefront loan sharks, basically, as soon as i see them in a community, i know, okay, we are in trouble here. that's when you know that there's not enough to make it from check to check. >> yes. and more and more people are falling into that trap. we sit here and we have a situation where, for want of $500 in savings, that should be available through the earned income tax credit or some other vehicle, but for one of $500 in savings, we end up in a trap, where you're repeating and repeating and repeating the l n loan. and up to 70% of the money they make on these loans is off of

repeat flipped loans, where it's paycheck to paycheck. i take it out, i pay it off, i take it out, i pay it off. and that's how it works. >> we were looking, apparently, it typically costs about $430 to pay off the average storefront loan within two weeks. but the vast majority of people who are taking them out can only afford $100, right? so if you can only afford $100, it costs $430 to pay them off, you see the majority of borrowers end up borrowing again and again. so there's a part of me who thinks, okay, this is, you know, your mama's, you know, lesson number one, financial literacy, never rob peter to pay paul, and that whole deal. but the reality is your kid is sick and all of a sudden you have an emergency room bill, your car is broke and you need to get to work. >> a lot of people will say stay away from the payday lenders, it will be a 400%, 600% annualized

interest rate, have to understand there are very few viable alternatives for somebody who says, the repo man is outside my door right now. i have to keep the lights on. what do you suggest? so people who are traditionally under banked or who are out of the credit mainstream don't have very many alternatives. it's a travesty and a crime and a shame and a sin and everything else we want to call it. but the fact is, many of these people are operating under desperate conditions. and as you said, the young people are also very much increasingly caught up in this cycle. i just want to add one other thing in terms of perspective, to kind of bring back our student loan conversation a little bit. we often think that student loan debt is a young people's problem. that it's the 18 and the 2-year-o 22-year-old problem. that is so not true. student loan debt can hurt you for decades. >> it's a 40-year-old person's problem, because you're still paying. >> it's a 50 and 60 -- many older americans have either gone back to school, they're second act people who are taken on another career, maybe got their graduate degrees, or they've

co-signed for their kids' student loans. so we don't recognize the magnitude of this problem. it isn't just about the 21 or the 22-year-old college grad. it's about the 40, 50, and 60-year-old who can't write it off in bankruptcy court, and if they don't pay those student loans and go into default, their social security checks get garbaged. and it's absolutely legal for the government to take some of your social security check. because you can't wipe this out in bankruptcy court, like you can, you know, credit card debt, et cetera. >> and you can't qualify for certain jobs if you are late on your student loan debt or in default. so the students coming out who have gotten their degree, but couldn't find jobs right away end up in default. they are not qualified for jobs in t and the public and private sector are using this to enslave. and people who have lost their jobs as part of this recession are going back to school to try to retool themselves for the new

economy, taking on this debt. and then they have burdened themselves into retirement. and yet, this debt has pre-payment penalties attached to it. so you can't, like, refinance, pay it off, without paying a penalty. >> excuse me, what?! if you pay off your student loan early, if you refinance your house and pay off your student loan early, you pay a penalty? >> yes. and the college that took out the loan also pays a prepayment penalty as well. but the banks who are making out these loans, the treasury department paid -- waived their prepayment penalty on their t.a.r.p. funds. so they have got us coming, going, and in between. >> this is really cradle-to-grave debt. >> on purpose. as a matter of policy. >> public policy. >> you had talked about people going back to retool themselves for their education, which

everyone should have the ability and accessibility to do. that should be affordable for anyone who needs to or wants to, but i think about my mom. she finished paying off her college loans the same year i graduated college. >> so right from one to the next. >> so at my graduation party, we had a cake for her, and one for me, for one was the beginning and one was the end. that's the economy we live in. these people are forced out of being able to participate, because you'll pay this for your lifetime. when you think about the cost of the loan, what you lose in retirementings and savings and building up your equity, we're going to wipe out generations. we have to talk about social security too. >> we'll come back on this issue. and not only do you have the payday loan and the student loan, which apparently is going to go until you are 79 years old, but also, that mortgage crunch that you're in, wait until you hear these confessions from the bank employees, deliberately lying to you about that. ♪ i'm in my work van, having lunch,

next minute i'm in the back of an ambulance having a heart attack. the emts gave me bayer aspirin. it helped save my life. i was in shape, fit. i did not see it coming. my doctor recommends i take bayer aspirin to help prevent another heart attack. [ male announcer ] aspirin is not appropriate for everyone so be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. i've lived through a massive heart attack. i don't take life for granted. see your doctor and get checked out. ♪ see your doctor and get checked out. running a small business riding against the wind. uphill. every day. we make money on saddles and tubes. but not on bikes. my margins are thinner than these tires. anything that gives me some breathing room makes a difference. membership helps make the most of your cashflow. i'm nelson gutierrez of strictly bicycles and my money works as hard as i do. this is what membership is. this is what membership does.

[ male announcer ] introducing red lobster's

seaside mix & match. combine any 2 from a wide variety of 7 exciting choices on one plate. all for just $12.99! but only for a limited time. i'm stewart harrington, and i sea food differently. with the innovating and the transforming and the revolutionizing. it's enough to make you forget that you're flying five hundred miles an hour on a chair that just became a bed. you see, we're doing some changing of our own. ah, we can talk about it later. we're putting the wonder back into air travel, one innovation at a time. the new american is arriving.

what unfolded last week in a boston federal court could have been a scene out of a legal drama called when good bank goes bad. when a former employee submitted declarations being told to lie to customers. the allegations were part of a lawsuit filed against bank of america by homeowners who say they were unfairly denied mortgage modifications for which they were eligible under the home modification program. for its part, bank of america responded with a statement saying the attorneys who gathered the lawsuits are, quote, painting a false picture of the banks' practices with the promise of a more detailed response in court. so why is bank of america so evil? >> it's all about money. i mean, it's just quite that simple. they have a balance sheet. they have a balance sheet of mortgages. they have a balance sheet of mortgages that they, in fact, own, and that their customers own. and a lot of them have been less than stellar performing in the

last several years. so for them, it is a financial decision for them to force people into foreclosure, which is a simple way to wipe one's hands clean of a bad note or a note that has problems attached or a note that has work attached to it in terms of a modification or a refinancing. it's simpler for them to push people into a foreclosure where the note gets closed and they can start from scratch than it is to actually help somebody out and keep their home. that's what's been going on here. these statements that we saw in boston are not a secret to people who are in the banking world. we understand that this has been policy, basically, since 2008. and hamp, which was a federal program, designed to help people stay in their homes was something that i think they associated $4 billion, but i think only $130 million or 140 million has actually been used, and that's because the banks do not want to use this program. this is a program that causes them to lose money, lose time, actually look to help people in

the process. but on the balance sheet, it's not so good. >> this is the thing that seems so obscene about the student loan question, the housing question. it is not that long ago in our history, when we what did as a country was to help people get educations and invest in their human capital and to help people buy their first homes and stay in them in order to build wealth. we recognized that's what was good for us as a country. how do we end up here in this place? >> we end up here through enforcement anemia, deregulation, where what's good for corporations, corporations are people, is good for the rest of us. trickle-down. settle down, and leave them alone. we have enforcement agencies who are afraid to enforce. they go and say, um, would you volunteer to participate in the hamp program? the hamp program is not required as a -- we gave them the money, through t.a.r.p., and then we asked them, could you please

make loans to small businesses with the money we gave you? and what they said was, no, we're going to take these bonuses, and then treasury said, well, if we don't let them take the bonuses, and let me say that the executives through t.a.r.p. money have received more money in bonuses than the victims of the subprime crisis. >> two points that need to be made. one, stella's right. hamp would -- i mean, t.a.r.p. would never have been approved without hamp being part of it. so this was something where the banks were really obligated to do their job on this. that's number one. number two, in terms of regulatory activity, the state attorney generals are suing these guys right and left. there are 48,000 suits out against bank of america, citi, and all the other major banks. the bottom line, for the banks, this is like a cost of doing business. they don't care. in the end, the fine will come down, $500 million, $1 billion? they don't really care. because in the end, a balance sheet that has $750 billion of

nonperforming loans, getting that to wipe itself clean over the course, underwater mortgages is a heck of a lot more important than the $500 million or $750 million they might get fined. >> you guys have to come back. because you have now told me we have a disease, the enforcement aanato anemia disease as a country. there is so much more on all of this. thank you to stella, to chris, to lynnette and dan. up next, as the supreme court prepares to rule on marriage equality, a stunning change of heart. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover, and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i've been with bp for 24 years. i was part of the team that helped deliver on our commitments to the gulf - and i can tell you, safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge safety equipment and technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art

monitoring center, where experts watch over all our drilling activity, twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. safety is a vital part of bp's commitment to america - and to the nearly 250,000 people who work with us here. we invest more in the u.s. than anywhere else in the world. over fifty-five billion dollars here in the last five years - making bp america's largest energy investor. our commitment has never been stronger.

for nearly 40 years, the florida-based christian ministry exodus international preached that gay and lesbian people could be cured through some sort of faith-based conversion therapy. well, the folks at exodus announced on wednesday that they

are shutting down and that they are sorry. as part of the group's announcement, exodus chairman alan chambers apologized to those who have been hurt by exodus adding that, quote, for quite some time, we've been imprisoned in a world view that is neither honoring toward our fellow human beings or biblical. seriously, yay. conservative christians who once ruined lbgt lives are now viewing them as children of god. that's a step. another step may come next week when the supreme court will issue its ruling on whether or not the defense of marriage act and california's marriage equality ban, proposition 8, are, in fact, constitutional or unconstitutional. we've been waiting for those rulings and for others for weeks. and in that time, marriage equality has gained further traction on capitol hill. senator lisa murkowski of alaska became the third republican in the u.s. senate to endorse marriage equality, making it 54.

that's a majority, folks, of senator who is favor it, according to the "washington post," after murkowski's coming out in favor of equality, josh bar rowe at insider noted the near-complete silence from conservative media on the announcement, writing that they are done engaging with the issue. but don't go popping bottles just yet. we know the struggle continues, because also on wednesday, a new study from the department of housing and urban development revealed that same-sex couples faced discrimination in the rental housing market. according to the study, heterosexual couples were favored other gay male couples in 15.9% of tests and over lesbian couples in 15.6% of tests. so amid signs of progress, a sign of just how far we still have to go. joining me again is aisha moodie-mills, the center for american progress, and joining her at the table is evan wilson, president of freedom to marry. jeff creely, the vice president and chief foundation officer at the human rights campaign, overseeing the organization's public outreach and education

programs, and janet mock, a writer and one of my favorite co-viewers of scandal. okay, evan, it's the best of times, it's the worst of times. how do you characterize where we are right now? >> it's definitely not the worst of times. it is, really, in some sense, the best of times. but as you rightly said, we want better times and we need to keep working to make sure that everybody has the same range of opportunities and choices and abilities to protect themselves, and there's no question that the work to win the freedom to marry has spurred much of the progress, because it's actually engaged americans and indeed people around the world in a much deeper conversation, not just about marriage, but about who gay people are, about why marriage matters, about family, about love, about connectedness. and as we've advanced towards the freedom to marry, something very, very important in and of itself, we've actually spurred even more progress towards ending discrimination in the workplace, toward ending violence and harassment in schools. towards securing protections for seniors. but we have a long, long way to go.

it's never done. and we have to keep doing. we have to keep our eyes on the prize and keep working. >> so one of the most annoying moments recently in politics for me was that code pink shout-out of first lady obama. and it was irritating to me because of what it was strategically, but it was right in that it was, it felt like the kind of squishing out of the sides of a recognition that marriage is only one item on a broad agenda, and that even as we're starting to get to some kind of consensus on marriage, we've got to talk about workplace discrimination and housing discrimination and all these other pieces. how'd we end up with that broader agenda, aisha. >> i think there's a catch 22 that happened. the beauty of marriage, it did move forward equality for lbgt people, at least culturally. but the flip side of that is also distracted from the fact we don't have employment protection. so we've got now, tom copper signed on as the 51st co-signer, but is still less than the folks who support marriage. and so, you know, we still have

a long way to go to educate the general public about where we are, with equality. i think that what we're going to see after these marriage cases is a quick pivot to talk about the concrete harm still that lbgt people face and we'll talk about with workplace protections, with hiv, with lbgt youth homelessness. there are a range of issues that will start to bubble up beyond marriage. >> i think, i wonder if part of it is this notion that marriage creates a space where straight folks can feel some sense of empathy, right? so your wife, danielle, and you are our favorite of any kind of couple that shows up, mostly because you usually come bringing gifts. we're always happy when the moodie-mills come, but there's something about the enormity associated with, oh, they come with beautiful parting gifts and all of that kind of thing. but what if the kind of empathy that we need is for people who don't somehow fit into that

normative box for us? >> i think that's amazing that you pointed out there's normative, because marriage is not the flagship rn for all lbgt people. and we need to be very clear about that. in that, you know, i hear evan talking about gay people, which is amazing, that that's his issue, but i speak on lbgt people, meaning that we are very broad and there's many issues that we all need to face, and i think about the right to marry as something thaempb should have, to have legal protections for someone that you love. but we also need to extend those legal protections to people who choose not to be in relationships, or to be in unconventional relationships, or just to be in a relationship by yourself. so we need to speak criminalization and hiv prevention and youth homelessness, as you brought up, and housing discrimination. and so many other issues that i think, trends, low income and people of color communities face within the lbgt community. >> it's also one of the great

gifts of queer politics, you make family in different ways and you, you know, you create this sense of belonging or a sense of self-identity in ways that, so that if even if our sis and straight and white, even in all those ways, the lessons that can be made from a new way of making family. on one hand, everyone should have the freedom to marry, but i worry about the compulsion to marry in order to get the kinds of economic incentives. is there a way that as we finally begin to get to a place where even the republican senators are on board and the conservative press don't even want to talk about it anymore, that we can start to queer our own lbgt politics as a way of broadening the agenda. >> i hope that is the case. there are so many underlying quality of life issues that are really just not in the dialogue right now about lbgt equality and it is things like youth homelessness and health disparities. it's a haunlg issue for our population and it never comes to

the top of the agenda. there are a whole range of issues we could get into now that we are the nation's attention and are building support for marriage. and i hope it oppose the doors to a broader conversation, about what it means to have basic lbgt equality in this country. >> in the same way that the civil rights movement manages to build consensus for the end of segregation and public accommodations, as soon as you start pushing for economic justice, oh, no! you're moving to fast. you've gone crazy, you're asking for too much. that's exactly what i want to talk about as soon as we come back from the break. the idea that economic justice may be the next frontier for lbgt politics. [ male announcer ] to help save wildlife affected by oil spills,

rescue workers have opened up a lot of dawn. ♪ they rely on it because it's tough on grease yet gentle. but even they'll tell you, dawn helps open... all: 3, 2, 1! [ male announcer ] ...something even bigger. this year, dawn is also donating $1 million to rescue efforts. go to facebook.com/dawnsaveswildlife. find out how the little things you do can make a big difference.

the day building a play set begins with a surprise twinge of back pain... and a choice. take up to 4 advil in a day or 2 aleve for all day relief. [ male announcer ] that's handy. ♪ woman: everyone in the nicu -- all the nurses wanted to watch him when he was there 118 days.

everything that you thought was important to you changes in light of having a child that needs you every moment. i wouldn't trade him for the world. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. if you're caring for a child with special needs, our innovative special care program offers strategies that can help.

last month, vice president joe biden credited the nbc comedy "will & grace" for transforming national opinion about gay americans. the belief that hay-income, white men, living in hip urban comfort represent the gay experience. but in a study released this month by the williams institute at the ucla school of law, researchers found that lbgt americans are more likely to be poor than heterosexuals, especially if they are african-american, women, or like some of us, both. the results underscore the importance of the marriage equality debate. in an interview, the nbc initiative reporting, williams institute professor mv lee badgette remarked that marriage is designed to give people a framework for living their economic lives together, as well as their family's lives. not having the right the to marry makes people more economically vulnerable as well. so, this is part of the next frontier, this question of an

economic justice agenda, and yet it is still tied to the marriage question. >> absolutely. and you know, getting that story out there, and disputing those myths that people have is such a huge uphill climb for us. people get captured by what is in the media, what is presented, and what is being talked about. and there are so must have of these other silent issues and poverty is a huge one. and people who tend to be in poverty are living in places where it isn't always safe to be out. so it even reinforces the closet that they're in. so it's just a self-perpetuating cycle that we can't really get off of, but it really, you know, i think marriage equality will help us in that regard, because it is a way to have that national conversation about these issues, and it will get us to those other places, but once you start talking about broader issues like economic security, it just oppose the door and kind of breaks down some of the coalitions that have been brought up around the particular issue around marriage equality, just by itself. once you start touch these other issues, you have to think about, how solid is that republican support. we've got them on marriage, but

i haven't heard anyone speak out about lbgt youth homelessness, which is an issue in this country. >> especially for transyouth, for which homelessness is absolutely epidemic, the health crisis that's associated with the likelihood of being victimized by crime, all of those questions. so not only the coalition which say the republicans, but also the coalition within lbgt politics, how to make sure the resources that have been mobilized initially around the hiv fight, the marriage fight, the don't ask, don't tell fight, that they end up also addressing youth who are trans and homeless. >> yeah, and i think that the legal equality is kind of the first step towards the beginning of the work that we need to do. there's still a lot more work that has to be done for the lived experience for a lot of lbgt people and i think about, you know, you mentioned "will & grace," and i think about how far it's removed from one of the first portraits that helped me realize who i was, as a young lbgt person, which was ricky vazquez on "my so-called life."

and you think about the portrait of that, you think about the afro latino, gender nonconfo nonconforming, kind of troubled, youth. how do we go from that to wi"wi & grace" in such a short time where it really just privileges the most privileged. >> i made the example of the african-american civil rights movement. rosa parks is chosen in the context of the montgomery bus boycott over the younger claudette, who just the month before had done the same thing, had sat down on the bus and refused to get up, because she was pregnant and unmarried and a teen. so you don't start a social movement behind her, because she's disreputable. you start it behind rosa parks who is married and hard working and herself an activist. there's a way in which "will & grace" sort of go out there and make the room for everybody else, or do they? >> i wouldn't put too much weight on "will & grace." i think there are at least three different things going that

we're talking about here. one is the absolute importance of not thinking about any one thing, however big it is, is enough. we all want everything and we all deserve everything and we have to fight for everyone. i think we all agree on that. a second point, though, is that it can't be either or. we have to not pit things against each other. why would we have a conversation against marriage workplace protections. workplace protections versus support for youth or inclusion of trans people. we want all of that. why spend our airtime pinning one part of what we want against what we want, when, in fact, the work to win the freedom to marry is about something very, very important, the freedom to marriage and marriage and the bundle of protections, tangible and intangible, that come to the most vulnerable, as well as off of us. but it's also been an engine for bringing along discussion about the rest of it. why do we have to rain on one thing in order to bring some more sunlight on to everything. >> and part of what's been useful about the freedom to marry has been the moral and ethical argument around it. i think that's part of what's interesting to me about exodus shutting down, is that it was a claim on the morality.

and i wonder if that morality can then be spread to say, and therefore, also protection of lbgt youth and poor people. >> exactly, and that was the third thing i wanteded to say, which is that in part, the reason marriage has been so powerful and resonant and captivating and engaging and successful at transforming understanding, is because it actually engages people that we need to bring along where they are, and bring them along. we can have a whole conversation that's very economic and elite and intelligent and passionate about the things we all believe in language we all are moved by. and that's great. we'll get us. we have to reach other people who don't fully agree with us and don't fully share the same language or same frame, but can be brought along. >> i love that point. if you make it, you can either have jesus or you can have equality. people will pick jesus. so you've got to make an argument that the lord would like the equality to come along. thank you all for being here. and in fact, aisha, evan, jeff, and janet, you guys are great panel. more, more, more. but after the break, i want to talk a little about someone else

trying to reach people where they are. on a hot day, what more would a person want than lemonade. from a 5-year-old's lemonade stand. a lemonade stand that raised $21,000 for peace and equality. our foot soldier is next. all business purchases. so you can capture your receipts, and manage them online with jot, the latest app from ink. so you can spend less time doing paperwork. and more time doing paperwork. ink from chase. so you can.

[ engine revs ] ♪ [ male announcer ] just when you thought you had experienced performance, a new ride comes along and changes everything. ♪ the 2013 lexus gs, with a dynamically tuned suspension and adjustable drive modes. because the ultimate expression of power is control. this is the pursuit of perfection.

back in march we brought you the story of aaron jackson. aaron through his nonprofit organization planted peace with a house in topeka, kansas across from the hate group that protests homosexually by disrupting the funerals of fallen military services. they painted the house in rainbow colors of the gay pride flag and dubbed it the equality house. not only does it stand as a symbol of peace and opposition to hate but they also raise funds for lgbt equality and

initiatives. kansas city based john sink, the founder of an arts group saw the news of the equality house in march. he felt moved by the little rainbow house he could he showed pictures to his 5-year-old daughter who fell in love with the colorful structure and the message of peace. he promised his daughter when the weather improved they could go visit. meanwhile she was bitten by the little entrepreneurial bug and asked her father if she could start a lemonade stand. john coordinated with aaron jackson and the plan was in place. last friday 5-year-old jayden and her father drove to topeka and set up the stand. even as temperatures reached 90 degree jayden sold lemonade to

the visitors of house. it led to a good turn out including soldiers from the military base. even though members from the hateful group emerged to yell slurs at customers, the little 5-year-old stood her ground and sold her lemonade. she raised $170 in cash. aaron's team created a crowd rise website so people around and outside topeka could donate to the stand even if they couldn't drive there. as of this hour the site has raised almost $21,000. jayden and her father are thrilled with the money raised and are donating all of it to planting peace to support their mission of planting peace for showing his daughter how love beats hate. john and jayden are our foot soldiers of week. there's more. the equality house is the little house that keeps on giving. in anticipation of upcoming

supreme court decision planting peace will be holding its first ever same-sex wedding tonight in the front yard of the beautiful rainbow house. to read more log onto our website at mhpshow.com. that's our show for today. the author of news week magazine cover will be here, the fight for black men will be here. now it's time for a preview of weekends with alex witt. a big decision from the past few hours. this one from the judge in the george zimmerman trial. the fight over food stamp, i'll talk about the gop effort to cut $20 billion from the program and where that fight is headed. there's already a made for tv film of the jodi arias saga. it's going to air tonight. paula deen put out two

videos for using racial slurs. how sincere did she come off? we have the stories in the next couple of hours. i'll be right back. ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker every day. ♪ ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker and i'm working every day. ♪ ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker and i'm saving all my pay. ♪ small businesses get up earlier and stay later. and to help all that hard work pay off, membership brings out millions of us on small business saturday and every day to make shopping small huge. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. [ male announcer ] moving object detection. ♪

blind spot warning. ♪ lane departure warning. safety, down to an art. the nissan altima with safety shield technologies. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪ to get our adt security system. and one really big reason -- the house next door. our neighbor's house was broken into. luckily, her family wasn't there, but what if this happened here? what if our girls were home? and since we can't monitor everything 24/7, we got someone who could. adt. [ male announcer ] while some companies are new to home security, adt has been helping to save lives for over 135 years. we have more monitoring centers, more of tomorrow's technology right here today, and more value. 24/7 monitoring against burglary, fire, and high levels of carbon monoxide starting at just over $1 a day. and now get adt installed for just $99. isn't your family worth

america's number-one security company? current adt customers call for special upgrade saveings. after buying two of everything, it was nice to only need one security system -- adt. [ male announcer ] get adt installed for just $99. and ask about adt pulse, advanced home management here today. adt. always there. where we switched their fruits brosand veggiestand with produce from walmart. it's a fresh-over. that's great. tastes like you just picked them. so far it's about the best strawberry i've had this year. walmart works directly with growers to get you the best quality of produce they've ever had. all this produce... is from walmart. oh my god. i'm shocked. (laughing) i know where i'm going to be shopping for strawberries now. get 2 full pounds of strawberries, just $2.98. backed by our 100% money back guarantee. walmart

will a key piece of evidence be heard in court during the george zimmerman trial? the judge rules on the 911 tape. charged. the man who spilled national security secrets faces charge of espionage. will he ever be sent back to the u.s.? securing the border faces its big test monday. can the border really be secured. a markable new documentary about two schools getting together to recreate the film to kill a mockingbird. it's high noon here in the east. 9:00 a.m. out in the west. welcome. we have a big decision from the judge in the george zimmerman trial. it happened within the past